This is my first blog post! Yay! I am going to respond to the oh so popular blog entitled, “Why you can fuck off when you say I NEED to vaccinate my children…”
“Below are not my words, they are words of a friend, I have been given permission to use them. I am not going to be bullied any longer. I am not going to put up with “well, my child is fully vaccinated and fine.” Because I am not fine and I refuse to put my children at risk because your child is fine.”
‘Me me me me me’ is all I hear when I read this. Vaccination isn’t all about you. Children, separate little humans, are at risk. It isn’t about you and your feelings. Get over yourself.
“What you need to know is my children are more than fine, they are healthy with no autoimmune disease, no celiac disease, no food allergies, no eczema, no learning disabilities.”
It is wonderful that your kids are healthy. Completely irrelevant to this discussion since vaccinations do not prevent or cause autoimmune disease, celiac’s disease, food allergies, eczema, or learning disabilities. You might as well say your kids have never been in a car crash.
“I am not willing to risk their health or well being because you think I should to “protect” your child.”
First, let’s discuss the risk to your health. Your kids are hundreds of times more likely to experience an adverse effect of a vaccine preventable disease than an adverse effect of a vaccine. The ONLY reason that your children aren’t routinely exposed to these diseases like they have been in the past is because people who are not psychopaths who don’t care about anyone but themselves (sorry, the proper name is an anti-social personality disorder. My bad) have vaccinated their children and created herd immunity. By driving the prevalence of the disease down, the risk your kids will ever come into contact with it goes down. But reduce herd immunity, allow those diseases to come back, and we will go back to every kid coming into contact with things like measles and diphtheria. Second, let’s get into your anti-social personality disorder. The fact that you have absolutely no empathy or concern for anyone but yourself is sick. Go see a doctor. Science has shown that monkeys and dogs have a basic level of empathy you seem to be lacking. Get some help.
“I don’t tell anyone to not vaccinate, I simply tell them to read an insert, and educate yourself about vaccines.”
Isn’t it amazing how vaccine manufacturers have never done a safety study, lied to parents and the government, and manipulated all of us into straight murdering our kids but they can’t seem to lie on that dang insert? The problem isn’t that people don’t read the insert, the problem is that scientifically illiterate assholes claim to have read the insert (probably haven’t but let’s just say they have) but don’t have the scientific understanding to interpret the insert. If you don’t know the difference between a side effect and an adverse event, you need to go back to science class and stop claiming to know anything about vaccines.
“If vaccines are so great they wouldn’t need to be made mandatory. If there weren’t hundreds of thousands vaccine injured people out there we wouldn’t be fighting for the right to choose…..”
‘If sober driving was so great we wouldn’t need DUI laws. If sober driving was really so much safer, there wouldn’t be millions of people who drive drunk! If there weren’t millions of people out there who had been injured while sober driving, we wouldn’t have people who WANT to drive drunk.’ Do you see what an idiot you sound like? People do stuff that is bad for them and society as a whole all the time which is precisely why we have laws and regulation. The fact that people don’t want to do something literally has nothing to do with its relative merits.
“Every person I’ve met that questions vaccine safety was once pro vaccine until themselves or someone they loved became vaccine injured.”
Rephrase until they believe they were vaccine injured. Given that there are thousands of parents of kids with autism that blame vaccines but vaccines don’t cause autism. The fact that someone blames something isn’t really justification for anything.
“Vaccines are not safe, vaccines did not save us from disease, indoor plumbing, and clean water did. If you look at the history of vaccines you will see that.”
Let’s just look at these 254 safety studies here. And isn’t interesting how many different time points the USA apparently got so much more hygienic?
As for the hygiene claims, they’re just silly. HiB was developed and reduced cases from 20,000 a year in 1990 to 1400 in 1993- there was no change in hygiene in the US between 1990 and 1993 guys. For more information on the hygiene myth check here.
“Also….It pisses me off that vaccine injury is not talked about. There are so many of us, young and old, injured by a vaccine yet everyone turns their head. Well guess what, I am angry, vaccines have killed and disabled so many and we must talk about it. You can say you love science but if you discount vaccine injury and all the adverse effects you don’t know science.”
We don’t talk about vaccine injuries? Hundreds of studies have been done because parents reported a vaccine injury. Go back to this link here, and look: Most of these studies were conducted after parents/doctors/public health officals were afraid there was a vaccine injury occuring. These studies just prove that there is nothing there. There is no correlation. The real issue is that despite science telling you, repeatedly, that vaccines didn’t cause whatever injury you’re harping on about, you won’t listen. Vaccine injuries aren’t dismissed out of hand. They are evaluated. Again. And again. And again.
“Science proves vaccines harm.”
Nope, 254 safety studies.
“Science proves vaccines don’t work (because booster after booster).”
Nope again. Just because something only works for a certain amount of time doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. There is a time limit on how long alcohol will get you drunk, but just because you won’t still be drunk in a week doesn’t mean you were never drunk at all.
“Science proves vaccines didn’t save us from disease….. Read a fucking medical journal….read the science, do not rely on mainstream news.”
“Vaccines are not scientific, because there has never been – I repeat, NEVER – been a published study that used an unvaccinated controlled/placebo group, to demonstrate the long-term efficacy…”
Placebo vs control studies are unethical because you’re purposely exposing a group of children to a vaccine preventable disease. But here are some that were done anyways. But what if we really wanted to do another study comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated kids. This is what it would take (quoted below)::
Let’s say – for the sake of argument – that we decide that a 10% difference in autism prevalence is enough to convince the skeptics that vaccines might cause autism and that a less than 10% difference will convince the believers that vaccines don’t cause autism. [I know, the latter assumption is pure fantasy.]
Well, plugging those numbers in – along with the current 1 in 150 autism prevalence – we find that we need over 360,000 children in each group to detect a 10% difference (you can try it yourself here). Unfortunately, that is more than the total number of unvaccinated children in the US, so that’s not going to happen.
What can we get with our “sample” of 49,652 unvaccinated children? If we manage to include each and every unvaccinated child in the US in the study, we could detect a 26% or more difference in autism prevalence.
Of course, it’s not even remotely practical to expect to get 100% of the unvaccinated children in the country into a study. How more about a practical number – say, 10% of them? That would allow us to detect a 70% or greater difference – about a three-fold difference in autism prevalence between the fully vaccinated and unvaccinated groups.
Finally, let’s “run the numbers” on a more practical study – one where we are able to enroll 500 unvaccinated children and 5000 fully vaccinated controls matched for age, sex, socioeconomic group, geographic location, urban vs rural vs suburban setting and race.
This study – which would still be very difficult and expensive to do – would only be able to detect a more than 15-fold difference in autism prevalence between the two groups. It could detect as little as a 7-fold difference, but only if we were willing to accept a beta error (chance of erroneously saying there is no difference when there is a difference) of over 50%.
I doubt this would “satisfy” the vaccines-cause-autism believers if the results were negative.
I can’t help but note that the study described by Prometheus would probably fail to find the well-known increased risk of lung cancer and heart disease due to smoking, the more so since the incidence of lung cancer in nonsmokers is considerably lower than 1 in 150, which is how many children are estimated to be autistic. Remember, the relative risk of lung cancer due to smoking is on the order of ten-fol
“…and long-term safety of any vaccine used in the U.S. Not one controlled study in any scientific journal evaluating the long-term benefits and risks vs. dangers of vaccination vs. unvaccinated (Dr. Hugh Fudenberg, M.D. world-leading in Immunogenetics, speech at the NVIC International Vaccine Conference, Arlington Virginia, Sept. 1997.)”
“Also, there has been no long-term study done on the safety of multiple vaccines given at the same time, or the carcinogenic and reproductive complications that may occur. Thus, no doctor or other health professional can honestly tell you your baby will be safe and there is no future cancer risk.”
“For those of you who remember science class, the use of a control (untreated or “placebo”) group to test results was considered fundamental in producing scientific findings. This bizarre absence of scientific method in vaccine studies tells you something vaccine industry integrity.”
Here is your placebo controlled study (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10) But again (I say again because you’ve already made this point and I’m repeating it) it is unethical to expose unvaccinated children to a disease. Modern ethics boards will no longer allow you to do that. This is not unique to vaccination. Here is some discussion of that.
“I ask you to show me one, just ONE, scientific study on any routine childhood vaccination showing that vaccinated kids are better off in the long-term than unvaccinated kids. You have to read all the raw data on the study and make sure that the control group is actually unvaccinated and the “placebo” they are using isn’t just another vaccine, or a vaccine that has just had the somewhat safe antigen removed and all the poisonous, toxic ingredients left in.”
“The one and only published comparison (non-controlled) study I have found comparing vaccinated kids to unvaccinated kids, was one in 2008 which showed that infants who were vaccinated with the Hepatitis B vaccine with Thimerosal (Thimerosal is 50% Mercury by weight) had nine times higher rate of developmental disabilities than unvaccinated children (The Journal of Toxicological and Environmental Chemistry, Sept. 2008 entitled Hepatitis B triple series vaccine and developmental disability in U.S. children aged 1 to 9 years by Gallagher and Goodman.).”
Thimerosal was removed from vaccines in 1992. Also, the comment that thimerosal is 50% mercury by weight is idiotic and reflects a complete, fundamental misunderstanding of science that the average 7th grader should know. Thimerosal is a compound, which means it has different properties from the elements which make it up. Table salt is 50% chlorine by mole (not weight because chlorine weighs more than sodium so it is about 60% chlorine by weight). Chlorine is a deadly gas the use of which is a war crime. So just because a compound has an element in it, doesn’t mean the compound is toxic. (Also, thimerosal is 46% percent mercury by weight and 4% by mole. If you’re going to lie about chemistry, do a better job.) The other interesting thing about this is that no one cares about the sulfur in thimerosal even though sulfur is pretty darn toxic as an element too. Learn some damn chemistry and stop embarrassing yourself.
Now as for the study you’ve listed: it was an internet survey of 31 people. I’ve seen children do better investigative work than that. But here are a whole bunch of studies that prove vaccines don’t cause autism in refutation to your internet survey of a few dozen people. (This one looked at 1,300,000 kids, that’s not quite 42,000x better than yours). Here’s 107 more.
“Our society celebrates the historical conquests of vaccines over disease.”
Yep. I basically look for any reason to celebrate. Reducing the number of dead babies seems like a good one to me.
“However, the data shows this celebration may not be deserved. National Morbidity Reports, from the U.S. Public Health Reports, show the rise and fall of deaths related to disease epidemics.”
Indeed they do. Then you can see where the vaccine gets involved and suddenly the highs get significantly lower!
“In most cases, the death rate was decreasing significantly before vaccines were even introduced. These reports, according to figures published in International Mortality Statistics, show that from 1915-1958 (five years before the creation of the measles vaccine) the measles health rate in the U.S. and U.K. had already declined by 98%, and that between 1900 and 1965, measles deaths had already decreased by 99% when the measles vaccine was introduced in 1968. From 1900 to 1935, whooping cough deaths had already decreased by 82% before the vaccine was introduced in the 1940s. Between 1923 and 1953, the polio health rate had already decreased by 55% when polio vaccine was introduced in 1955. It is fascinating, that the incidence of polio in Europe decreased at the same rate and same time as the U.S., even though in Europe there was no polio vaccine. It appears that these epidemics were simply at the tail end of a natural disease cycle when the vaccine was introduced. The death rate of tuberculosis declined similarly in countries that did not use the BCG vaccine, as in those that did. Scarlett fever, rheumatic fever, and typhoid were all deadly killers which all disappeared without a vaccine.”
So this is a pretty classic logical fallacy used by antivaxxers. You look at death rates instead of incidents rates. Yes, as time went on we got better at treating diseases. But diseases can still have horrifying long term effects if you survive them (3 in 1000 kids who gets measles will have severe brain damage for example) not to mention the incredibly suffering of having these diseases that is avoided. Check out this infographic for actual information on disease cases before and after vaccines:
“This natural downward trend is also shown in the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company’s actuarial tables (that have no financial bias), showing the death rate among children from diphtheria, measles, and whooping cough had already decreased 95% from 1911 to 1945 from actual “natural herd immunity” at work – before the mass immunization programs started in the United States. This decrease was mainly due to less crowding and improved hygiene. Amazingly, it appears that most, if not all, of the diseases, for which we commonly vaccinate, would have largely disappeared without any vaccines, just as other diseases have done all through history. (The documentation that settles this question on the relevance of the vaccines in the natural decline of diseases, with graphs showing the degree of disease decline and the years when vaccines were introduced, is found in International Mortality Statistics Facts on File, pp. 163-189, 313, Michael Anderson, inc ISBN o-87196-514-3 and U.S. Dept. of Comm. Historical Statistics of the U.S., Part 1 Bureau of Census 1975.)”
Again same point as before. Common logical fallacy designed to confuse people. Vaccines prevent disease incidents. You’re looking at deaths.
“Not only is the efficiency of vaccines in question,”
“but there is evidence that they can actually cause disease. For example, the first polio vaccination campaign was launched in April 1955, and immediately 70,000 school children became ill, 56 contracted polio, many became paralyzed, and many died from the vaccine.”
Again I would LOVE a citation here. But some google work I figured out what you’re talking about.
the tragedy that occurred when 200,000 people were inadvertently injected with live virulent polio virus: 70,000 became ill, 200 were permanently paralyzed, and 10 died.
So In short, you’re going to try and pretend that people injected with the WRONG VIRUS are representative of all vaccinations? Surely no one could actually believe that logical fallacy. Here is some info on the polio vaccine safety information.
“The relevance of smallpox vaccine to the actual eradication of smallpox on the planet is also quite controversial, and I’m sure you will find the details of the study quite interesting, though quite extensive. Suffice it to say, the story of the smallpox vaccine is a long complex story, so I will simply refer you to my references, particularly the smallpox section of “The Vaccine Safety Manual”, pages 27-46 by Neil Miller. It is excellent. Don’t just go to the CDC website where they admit to no real problem with any vaccine. The actual facts and studies on smallpox are quite amazing and largely unknown. Do some reading if you are curious.)”
The only people who question that the smallpox vaccine eradicated smallpox are morons. The only people who believe that the CDC with its hundreds of thousands of employees are actually in on one big conspiracy theory are also morons. But here is some information on the smallpox vaccination campaign. The only people who will direct you to buy a book instead of point you to studies are morons with a vested interest in your purchase. I will not buy the book and support this idiot, but I will link to a review of the book
“So if you feel the need to tell me my children are putting your children at risk for a disease they don’t have you can fuck off. My children will not receive toxic chemicals so you can feel like your child is protected. My children are protected, their immune systems are strong. If I’m not worried about my unvaccinated family you shouldn’t be either.”
Again, back to my concerns about you having anti-social personality disorder due to having less empathy than a common chimp. Here are some safety studies showing that your “toxic chemicals” line is bullshit. And here are some studies showing the danger of vaccine preventable diseases to show how “safe” your kids are. On another note, I don’t just want your kids vaccinated because they are a danger to the entire society. I want them vaccinated because they are human beings. They don’t deserve to suffer or die because their parents are idiots. See unlike you (who only cares about your agenda), I care about your kids as much as I care about mine.
“Chances are your children are around unvaccinated children and adults every day. If you haven’t caught up on your boosters for all vaccines on the 2017 schedule you are considered unvaccinated.”
Actually most people are vaccinated. For most vaccines, over 90% of people are vaccinated..
“Those vaccines you received as a child are no longer “protecting” you. Here is the adult schedule. I just think you should know EXACTLY what you are injecting and the adverse effects of the toxins.”
Again, you’re repeating the same tired stuff. The fact that vaccines need boosters doesn’t mean anything. Most antibiotics have to be taken more than once too- are you going to say they don’t work next (actually probably- most science deniers deny many points of science).
“This breakdown of the ingredients in the dtap is one of my favorites…
Why a life with brain damage or neuropathy (yes, it’s a common adverse effect from the MMR that your doctor fails to mention and a 1 year old can’t tell you they feel it) is not better than a week with the measles”
Actually the chance of an adverse event is about .7 per million doses of MMR with 33 out of 70 million doses resulting in anaphylactic reactions. Meanwhile the chances of brain damage or death from measles is 3 per 1,000 (or 3,000 per million for those who don’t want to do the math, making contracting measles several thousand times more dangerous for you baby’s brain than a vaccine).
“A list of all vaccine ingredients, do you actually know what’s in all those vaccines?”
“If you care to see personal stories of the vaccine injured.”
And in response here are some stories of people who have been abducted by aliens. Seriously. Just because someone tells a story doesn’t make it true.
“And you can’t get tetanus from a rusty nail or a cut from a kitchen knife or a cat scratch and even if you did the vaccine is useless, you would need TiG shot.”
“Measles wasn’t scary before the vaccine was a money maker, it’s still not scary unless you watch the news that is controlled by vaccine share holders.”
“I’ve done my research”
Except you skipped 7th grade chemistry and every other science class since.
“I didn’t listen to anyone “famous”, I didn’t get my info from google (I started this journey long before google).”
Yeah you got your info from a $15 paperback sold by a fraud. Yay you?
“I am making an informed decision for my family,”
No you’re making an ignorant decision to put your children at risk. You aren’t making any choices for yourself.
“this freedom should not be taken away. Whether you vaccinate or don’t should be a choice, to take that choice away is medical tyranny. So if you vaccinate you should still protest mandatory anything….think about it….”
Nope. You don’t get to beat your kids. You don’t get to neglect your kids. You don’t get to deny your kids medical treatment. They are people. You don’t own them.
“where there is a risk there needs to be a choice.”
Everything in life carries risk. I wish people were smart enough to take the route of minimal risk. But clearly, some of you never passed 7th grade science. So that is why the government must step in.